Ep. 3 | The Vitalist's Approach: Merging Chinese Medicine, Naturopathy, and GNM with Dr. Kye Peven
n this enlightening episode, we’re joined by Dr. Kye Peven, a skilled doctor of Chinese Medicine, Naturopathic Medicine, and a vitalist practitioner. Dr. Peven shares his journey into the world of medicine, which began with a deep meditation practice, and how it shaped his approach to healing. We dive into the integration of German New Medicine (GNM) into his practice and explore how he combines ancient wisdom with modern techniques to treat the whole person—mind, body, and spirit.
Through this conversation, we learn how Dr. Peven views health as an interconnected balance, using GNM as a powerful tool in his holistic approach to healing. Whether you're new to these concepts or deeply immersed in the world of naturopathic medicine, Dr. Peven’s insights will offer valuable perspectives on how we can better understand and address the root causes of disease, and how to support healing from within.
Tune in for a thought-provoking discussion on the transformative potential of combining traditional medicine with a vitalist approach to health.
Transcript:
Ellen: Hello, and welcome to the German New Medicine Collective podcast. Today, I am with Dr. Kai Peeven, and I'm so excited to have this conversation with you. Um, Dr. Kai is one of our practitioners within our German New Medicine Collective space. And yeah, just really. Excited to have this conversation and talk about his journey to Germannew Medicine and how he utilizes it in his practice. Um, a little bit about Dr. Cai. He is a naturopathic doctor and doctor of Chinese medicine with doctorates from the National University of Natural Medicine in Portland, Oregon. The oldest school of naturopathic medicine in the country. He has been in private practice with a non profit Whole Systems Healthcare Center.
Ellen: For the past six years in Seattle, Washington, and now in Tampa, Florida, as a vitalist, he believes the mind and body are constantly striving wholeness and have the innate capacity to heal. In his practice, he primarily focuses on the mind body connection, lifestyle interventions, diet, nutrition, gentle form informational medicines, such as homeopathy, and botanical medicine and acupuncture. His discovery of German new medicine is relatively more recent. He has found this additional layer of understanding of the connection between mind and body, highly relevant, is working to integrate German new medicine with existing models of the body from naturopathic and Chinese medicine. Welcome to the show, Dr.
Ellen: Kai. So nice to have you.
Dr. Kye Peven: Thanks so much for having me.
Ellen: Yeah. Yeah, just really curious, reading your bio, um, it sounds like you utilize a variety of tools and, um, I would love to hear a little bit more about, yeah, what brought you into the work that you do and then your journey into kind of adding German New Medicine as another layer to the practice that you offer with your clients.
Dr. Kye Peven: Yeah, absolutely. Um, try and give it just a quick overview. Um, I would say my, my entry into medicine really actually arose from my introduction and then initial foray into meditation. Yeah, absolutely. And, um, contrary to a lot of folks that get into alternative medicine through their own, like, physical healing process, I sort of came to it more from the spiritual side of things because starting to do a lot of meditation really made me realize that Um, next to sort of spiritual evolution, um, health is really the number one deciding factor on how happy somebody is, you know, what kind of a life they have.
Dr. Kye Peven: And, um, you know, I've kind of always been motivated by this idea of wanting to contribute to the world, wanting to contribute to the people of the world. And. You know, it sort of became obvious that health and medicine was really the, the path. Um, because when people are healthy, they can do anything. Um, and that was, that was sort of the entry point.
Dr. Kye Peven: Um, I knew I didn't want to go in the direction of standard allopathic medicine. Even at that point, I kind of, I had some idea of what that path would entail. And I have a college background in engineering, and I knew that Western medicine, it's the same, it's the same thought process, you know, it's kind of soulless, actually, um, you know, you have to find your own soul in a system that really tries to kind of cut it out.
Dr. Kye Peven: And so I found naturopathic medicine and Chinese medicine, and I was lucky enough that there was a school that did that. I had extremely amazing programs in both of those. Um, so that's what I went to. And then, you know, German New Medicine came again relatively recently. I've probably only known about German New Medicine for a year.
Dr. Kye Peven: Um, and it just, you know, there's so many different systems, but German New Medicine is a very It's a very elegant system. Um, it's, it's pretty consistent and that's something I look for is systems that are internally consistent. Um, you know, there is, there's all, there's acknowledgement as well of where the system fails, which I think is really important, um, because no system can cover all possibility.
Dr. Kye Peven: And it's, it's very much congruent with every other. System of medicine that I'm aware of. Um, and so I love, I love having different systems because you can layer them on top of each other and then you gain more insight into what's going on. You know, you can use multiple systems and get a broader perspective on.
Dr. Kye Peven: What's something, you know, what, what's happening, what someone might be experiencing. So, yeah, I'm excited to use it, you know, use it more with my patients.
Ellen: Yeah, awesome. Thank you so much for sharing. Um, I love the, the piece that you shared around the way you came to medicine was more of a spiritual journey than, um, yeah, then trying to solve your own, yeah, like maybe your own health struggles or something like that. Um, I, In my own work as a nurse have felt like a deep spiritual connection to the service that I, bring to the work that I do as well.
Ellen: And I think that it, for me personally, it just brings a lot, an additional layer, yeah, of what you said, soul, and then also of fulfillment because of that, um, connection to the, to the spiritual heart of, of healing and, and what it means to be a healthy human. Yeah.
Dr. Kye Peven: I think that's so important. And,
Ellen: hmm.
Dr. Kye Peven: that I think everybody is looking for in medicine. Um, is, is that soul piece? Um, you know, one of the things that I think about a lot is the, the, the sort of difference between. Um, conventional allopathic, like our, our conventional standard medical system and most other like alternative medical systems is that the, the sort of ideal, the ideal state of conventional medicine is that you can go to any doctor or any hospital and receive exactly the same diagnosis and exactly the same treatment.
Dr. Kye Peven: Like, no matter where you go, you know, because there's this objective reality and they're going to find it. And the only reason that you don't, that that doesn't happen is because we're imperfect, you know, and there's no recognition. Like the, you know, what happens with most other forms of medicine is you go to different doctors and you get different diagnoses and you get different treatments.
Dr. Kye Peven: And that's a good thing. You know, you should be getting something different because they're different people and they have a different lens and they have different tools and they have a different perspective.
Ellen: Totally.
Dr. Kye Peven: And that's the sole piece, right? Like, we're not these automatons,
Ellen: Mm hmm.
Dr. Kye Peven: you know?
Ellen: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The, the acknowledgement of the mind body spirit, um, in, in the approach to the human, um, yeah. So I
Dr. Kye Peven: hmm. Mm
Ellen: that. And I'm curious in your practice, if you. Have any area of specialty or yeah, what kind of, um, yeah, if you work with a variety of people from a variety of backgrounds looking for, you know,
Dr. Kye Peven: hmm. Mm hmm.
Ellen: support in different ways or, um, yeah.
Ellen: Mm hmm.
Dr. Kye Peven: interesting question, um, because again, sort of in the conventional world, people think of specialties as, Diseases like you specialize in treating diabetes. You specialize in treating head injuries. You specialize in treating, you know, like endocrine disorders. And, um, as a vitalist, all of that is kind of superfluous because, you know, vitalists and this idea of vitalism, what you're really looking at is physiology, not pathology.
Dr. Kye Peven: You, you want to understand how people like, like how does health work? Not how does disease work?
Ellen: Mm
Dr. Kye Peven: so, um, I do specialize, and I would say the most accurate way to describe that is I specialize in trauma.
Ellen: hmm.
Dr. Kye Peven: Because the only reason that people don't heal is because of trauma, right? And otherwise you heal, you know, you cut yourself, you break your arm, you, you know, you, you suffer a, like a, uh, relational breakup.
Dr. Kye Peven: Um, if there's no lasting impact, if there's no trauma, then you recover and you move on, you keep going. That's how life works. Um, and so you have to find that trauma and heal that. And, you know, even with, with lifestyle factors, like eating a lot of junk food, for example, you know. Almost always there's a trauma, there's a trauma component, you know, there's a, there's an emotional component, and that has to be teased apart.
Dr. Kye Peven: You have to figure that out, you know.
Ellen: Yeah, that piece is huge. I, I too feel, um, often is kind of the missing link within a lot of, um, medical practice or, um, You know, when people seem to come up against this resistance to the body healing, to finding resolution, and I really, I truly think that's what has brought me to German New Medicine is, um, this, this piece of, of trauma and, and how the psyche is impacted when, you know, we, we experienced something and, and however we, um, process that experience, You know, may or may not have a lasting impact.
Ellen: And so, um, yeah, I'm curious with the trauma piece, just, just how you approach that with the clients that you work with and I'm sure it's, it, you know, it
Dr. Kye Peven: Sure.
Ellen: individual, but yeah,
Dr. Kye Peven: Yeah.
Ellen: for you to share more on that.
Dr. Kye Peven: Mm hmm. Well, my, my current sort of predominant model that I use for diagnosing and treating trauma is from Chinese medicine. And in Chinese medicine, in the lineage that I've studied with, um, This is called heart shock,
Ellen: Hmm.
Dr. Kye Peven: I find heart shock to be a much, a much better and more evocative term than trauma for a number of reasons, partly because, you know, trauma has all of these implications in the English language in our culture, and heart shock is, number one, it's more descriptive, because that's actually what's, what is going on, right?
Dr. Kye Peven: It is actually shock to the heart, and in Chinese medicine, The heart is a much broader system than just the, you know, physical heart that is in the chest. And so, when we say heart shock, um, what we mean is the systemic effect of trauma, whether it's at a physical level, or emotional level, or mental level, or even at a spiritual level, right?
Dr. Kye Peven: And There are, you know, there are ways to, to, to diagnose, you know, signs and symptoms that indicate a likelihood of heart shock. And some of them, you know, are symptoms that the person is experiencing. Um, sleep disruption is a really common one, you know. I would say that a majority of people with insomnia have a degree of heart shock.
Dr. Kye Peven: Um, other, you know, other signs and kind of crossing over into, uh, like more of a biomedical lens. Um, anyone who has excess sympathetic nervous system activity probably has a degree of heart shock, right? So people who are anxious, people who, um, have, like, cold hands and feet, or who are cold all the time, um, people who have, you know, like, anxiety and, like, digestive difficulties because they're parasympathetic offline, um, right, like, excess parasympathetic also commonly leads to insomnia, um, people who, who, like, sweat in their armpits, like, very easily with any kind of stress, right, that's, like, excess sympathetic, um, Those are all signs of heart shock.
Dr. Kye Peven: And then there are, there are physical things that I will observe that the patient might not be aware of. Um, the pulse for me is a major diagnostic tool. So I do a lot of pulse diagnosis and this is a common pulse. There's a common diagnostic tool in Chinese medicine. Um, it's mostly done by feeling the radial artery at the wrist.
Dr. Kye Peven: And there are a lot of different systems, but the system I practice, there are very specific pulse findings that indicate heart shock. Um, you can also perceive heart shock in the face, um, on the tongue, or, or really any other, like, visible mucous membrane, but, you know, the tongue is the easiest to see. Um, you can look in the eyes, um, you know, heart shock, it's a systemic effect.
Dr. Kye Peven: So you can see it everywhere if you know what you're looking for.
Ellen: Hmm.
Dr. Kye Peven: Right. And there's, there's other, there's other systems that you can use to find heart shock in like different parts of the body. But right, you see it in the mind, you see it at the emotional level and you see it physically in the body.
Dr. Kye Peven: And then in terms of treatment, um, you know, a lot of times, uh, The initial treatment has to be somatic, so there's no use, there's no use trying to treat trauma through something like, like counseling or talk therapy, um, especially if it's old, you know, it's like something that happened in childhood and the person's now an adult, um, you have to start with the body because that's where the, that's where the trauma is held, is in the body, um, and so I do a lot of acupuncture, um, I do, I use a lot of herbal medicine, there are specific herbs that You know, are helpful for working with heart shock.
Dr. Kye Peven: Um, and I use a lot of constitutional or classical homeopathy. Which, and I find all three of those synergize really, really well.
Ellen: Beautiful.
Dr. Kye Peven: then, typically, what I do is the counseling comes after we start working with the body.
Ellen: Do you find that with addressing the somatic piece first, that it allows the, the, um, the psyche to acknowledge it a bit more? It like kind of brings it to the surface.
Dr. Kye Peven: Absolutely. Um, you know, trauma, anything that is chronic, anything that is a chronic state, um, exists at every level of the human experience, right? Whether, like, no matter where something started, like, if it started physically, With a broken leg, um, you know, if it doesn't completely resolve, if it, if it becomes trauma, right, because there's no guarantee that a difficult experience will become trauma, but if it becomes trauma, then by definition, it exists physically, emotionally, mentally, and, and, you know, spiritually, and so you get the best results by working at all of the levels together, right?
Dr. Kye Peven: And, you know, sometimes you start with one and then you move to the other, but you do need to. Address every level.
Ellen: Yeah, cool. And um, yeah, just on the topic of, yeah. And then just on the topic of German new medicine, I would love to hear you share about how this This tool has just added to the practice that you offer, um, the work that you do with clients and um, maybe just how it's informing the work that you do in a new way.
Dr. Kye Peven: Um, I find German New Medicine to be very helpful because it gives a level of detail beyond the models that I'm already very familiar with, primarily from Chinese medicine that link mind and body. Um, and it's, you know, it's because the strength of the Western mindset is, is the reductionism. And so, you know, German New Medicine does, even though it is it, you know, a system that integrates mind and body, it still comes from that Western, uh, that Western perspective, which is fundamentally like the Western, right?
Dr. Kye Peven: The entire Western mindset has been let's break everything down to the smallest component. Let's understand the smallest piece. of reality, and then we can kind of put it back together. And so, um, you know, the idea of specific tissue types having correspondences to, you know, specific mental emotional experiences, um, and that's, you know, that being based on, like, which germal layer that tissue type comes from, you know, and those little details I find to be very helpful.
Dr. Kye Peven: Um, and this, you know, integrates really well with the way we understand minded body from the Eastern or Chinese medicine perspective, which starts big, um, right, like the, the basic metaphysical, uh, underpinnings of Chinese medicine are that everything is one, everything is the Dow, everything is indivisible.
Dr. Kye Peven: And so there's. Like any, any separation that we make, any, any kind of reduction, every, any division that we make is fundamentally arbitrary and illusory. And that kind of, you know, that kind of perspective is It's really much more helpful for seeing the big picture, but doesn't get to the level of detail that the Western perspective does.
Dr. Kye Peven: And so these two sides integrate really well. Um, so, you know, um, I find that like I can take the understanding of some kind of, you know, pathological process or some kind of imbalance and look at it from both sides and, and then you get more detail and. You know, they, these, these two different systems, um, fill in the, the gaps left by the other.
Ellen: Beautiful. Yeah. It seems like just a really, supportive blend to have the lenses from, you know, different sides of the spectrum.
Dr. Kye Peven: Right.
Ellen: Yeah.
Dr. Kye Peven: you know, one of the things about German New Medicine, which can be challenging is that it, it requires the patient to have enough self awareness to find The source of the conflict and in in healing right in the practice of medicine That is geared towards healing. The most difficult thing is Creating self awareness for your patient, right?
Dr. Kye Peven: Everything else is very simple. Very easy you know, whatever whatever treatment you're doing whatever modality you're using like that's the easy part the self awareness is the difficult part and You know, German New Medicine is really great because it, it gives a system in which to ask the patient more specific questions,
Ellen: Mm hmm.
Dr. Kye Peven: right?
Dr. Kye Peven: You can say, well, you know, this, this symptom comes, you know, from this tissue type, which means there's this kind of conflict happening. And it started when you were, you know, age 24, like. You know, what, what kind of emotional experience did you have at age 24 that, you know, matches this type of conflict pattern?
Dr. Kye Peven: And that's helpful because it jogs their memory, it gets them really thinking about their experience, and, you know, it can kind of increase their level of self awareness around that. Um, but there's plenty of people who still, you know, their answer to all of that is, I don't know, I don't, you know, nothing happened.
Ellen: Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
Dr. Kye Peven: like acupuncture, I can treat someone without talking to them at all. You know, there's, there's plenty of information available from their body that I can come up with an understanding of what's happening.
Dr. Kye Peven: And. These, these two, you know, the two, these two approaches feed off of each other. And so, you know, you, you hit a, you hit a block or you, you know, you get to a place where you're not progressing with counseling, then you can use acupuncture and, you know, create movement at a physical level and go through that block, you know, on a different dimension.
Ellen: Yeah. And I mean, just based on of what I've observed, only within the Derma New Medicine space, but in the process of healing, that self awareness piece is a big part of it. And also I've observed, like for example, um, my partner, he's been dealing with some asthma symptoms. More in the last couple of years and the German new medicine piece has been really helpful.
Ellen: And I think, you know, his experience, the way that he's described it is like, I've been just racking my brain. Like what, what are the conflicts? Like just almost like making it a very mental process. Um,
Dr. Kye Peven: hmm.
Ellen: see how utilizing a variety of tools with, in combination with Chinese medicine with, um, just like a naturopathic approach could be very valuable in addressing both, you know, what's going on in the psyche and in the, the somatic system, like from a
Dr. Kye Peven: Mm hmm.
Ellen: in the body, helping to resolve both. so I really appreciate. The kind of like the blend that you bring in your practice and, um, in, in the conversations that I've had with some of our other practitioners, there is, you know, Germany medicine is part of the, the, um, toolkit that they have, but not like the end all be all.
Dr. Kye Peven: Mm hmm.
Ellen: I find that having, yeah, just a wide lens to approach things and to address things with people can be so valuable depending on where the person is and, and what's going on with them.
Ellen: My name is Chris Giang. And
Dr. Kye Peven: Yeah, I find German New Medicine to be extremely helpful for
Ellen: speak today about the recruitment
Dr. Kye Peven: helping to create
Ellen: I'll talk about
Dr. Kye Peven: a,
Ellen: for our
Dr. Kye Peven: a meaningful narrative for people,
Ellen: school board's
Dr. Kye Peven: because
Ellen: I'll
Dr. Kye Peven: for myself, um,
Ellen: and
Dr. Kye Peven: most helpful, you know,
Ellen: plans.
Dr. Kye Peven: when I've had physical, um, issues and, you know, health issues that I've dealt with. Typically, the most helpful treatments and the most helpful practitioners that I see are the ones that help me create a meaningful narrative about what I'm experiencing.
Dr. Kye Peven: And it's not actually the people that make the problem go away. Um, and. In, in this way, I think German New Medicine is extremely helpful because it helps people to, to understand what's happening, right, so that it's not this scary, unknown experience where they have no control. It's like, no, this is happening.
Dr. Kye Peven: This is all happening for a reason. It makes perfect sense. Um, and. Even though it's difficult, um, you know, there is, there is a trajectory that, that fits, you know, it's not just random and chaotic,
Ellen: Yeah, totally. And just, um, allows the person, I think the, with the narrative, with creating a narrative and, and having that layer of understanding, being able to almost like trust the body more and, and of let go a little bit as far as the fear truly that
Dr. Kye Peven: right?
Ellen: happen with,
Dr. Kye Peven: Right.
Ellen: Yeah.
Dr. Kye Peven: Yeah, and I think also, and this is something that I think is really incumbent on the practitioner to communicate to the patient, is that, well, number one, um, right, every symptom that the body is exhibiting is in service to survival, is in service to health, um, and like, Sort of and and sort of as a corollary to that, nothing that the patient is experiencing is inherently bad, right?
Dr. Kye Peven: That's such a common experience for for people is when they're sick or when they're dealing with health issues. There's this There's a judgment about that that something's bad and either they're bad because they did something to cause this to themselves or The world's bad because it did this to them.
Dr. Kye Peven: You know, there's it's like there's some kind of You know, victimization that occurs, and I think using German New Medicine well, it's a way to communicate to patients that nobody's a victim, that, you know, their body is responding perfectly actually,
Ellen: Yeah, and in that way, we can, I think, support the collective, support humanity in moving from that state of victimization to freedom, ultimately, um, on like a, a psycho spiritual level, just being able to really surrender to, to the Tao, to life and the way that it's, it's Yeah,
Dr. Kye Peven: right?
Ellen: I love, I love hearing about, yeah, your approach and, and all that you take into consideration when working with patients and I can imagine just, just in my own, um, work in the healthcare field, how valuable it is have, um, someone with lens of, of the, the mind, body, spirit and, and how to approach the human as, as a whole human in that way.
Dr. Kye Peven: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. I find that's the most fascinating part, you know, that's the most, that's the most rewarding part of medicine is, um, seeing people evolve. Because ultimately that's, that's what it means to heal. It means to evolve, right? I mean, you see it even in the German, even in German new medicine, right?
Dr. Kye Peven: If you never come out of the conflict state, you know, then eventually you die. You know, you, you just like, you're, you're in permanent fight or flight and you don't eat and you, you just, you know, that, that, that's death. And, and so, The only way out of that is to evolve.
Ellen: Totally. you know, like, with a parallel of the collective and what's happening in, on the planet at this time, I often get really curious about our as a planet as, you know, a human collective, um, and so the, the timing of the, you know, the way that we created the German new medicine collective and this information, um, playing a piece in our evolution as, as human beings really beautiful.
Ellen: And. And as we're speaking, I'm just like seeing this beautiful parallel between, yeah, the individual work that you do with people and the evolution that you're seeing and how it's serving the collective and how it's serving us as, as humanity is being able to, um, move from that state of conflict, which all of us are very familiar with, you know, we, we can see that both individually in our culture. In our own lives, and then collectively, whenever we look out at what's happening in the world and, um, the piece of evolution and, and how we, we move from a state of conflict to a state of freedom and harmony, um, is just a beautiful parallel that I'm, I'm tuning into as we're having this conversation.
Dr. Kye Peven: Yeah.
Ellen: Any final thoughts or, um, any other things that you'd love to share while we're having this conversation on the, on the podcast?
Dr. Kye Peven: Um, something, you know, what, what you were just saying about, um, like our evolution as a species and the way that, you know, the, like the planet is changing right now, um, sort of brings to mind, I think something that is interesting to think about, which is that. Any, any holistic medical system should be applicable at multiple levels, right?
Dr. Kye Peven: Which means we can look at society through the lens of German New Medicine, right? We can look at the whole planet through the lens of German New Medicine. And, you know, if we, if we want to diagnose a societal ill, then we should be able to map the, this idea that, like, disease is a result of internal conflict.
Dr. Kye Peven: We should be able to map that onto society, right? We just have to figure it out. And German, and Chinese medicine does this very easily because everything's metaphorical, right? It, it starts at the level of metaphor and the physical manifestation, like your, your skin. Or your hair, or your eyes, or whatever, is the manifestation of a metaphorical process.
Dr. Kye Peven: And German medicine is, um, the other way around. It really starts at the physical level, you know, with these tissue types. But we should be able to take this idea of, like, spleen tissue. And be like, okay, where's, where's the spleen tissue of society? And if that's sick, then that should tell us what kind of conflict is happening societally.
Dr. Kye Peven: Right. And I think that would be a very interesting thing to explore.
Ellen: Yeah, yeah, totally. And I think just the kind of the macro understanding, know, something that's coming through us as we're speaking is of my favorite stories, um, you know, used as metaphor. We love stories as humans. Some of my favorite stories, rather than just creating like Transcribed A villain and a hero allows us to see the deeper layer of how the villain became the villain, how the conflict has perpetuated because of the state of internal conflict in, you know, the, the so called villain and, um, like that deeper layer of understanding for, yeah, conflict at a societal level and at an individual level and the compassion and understanding that, you know, each of us has our own path that we're walking and, and that, you know, the conflict that may result, there's, there's more behind that whenever we, um, start to have more compassion and understanding and, not only, you know, for our own. Story and the part that we're playing in it, but also, you know, what's manifesting as our own physical struggles and ailments and, um, in that healing process.
Dr. Kye Peven: And ultimately that's evolution, right? Is the experience that used to be a conflict is not a conflict anymore.
Ellen: Yeah. Totally. it's an exciting time to be a human because I feel like we're, we're watching it all happen.
Dr. Kye Peven: I know there is sure a lot happening right now.
Ellen: Yeah. Yeah. Um, awesome. I'm so grateful for this conversation and just for hearing a little bit more about you and your practice and, um, I'm really happy that you. And that you're doing the work that you're doing to support, um, you know, the people that come your way.
Ellen: And, um, I hope that conversation is, is able to some, some hope for people and making meaning out of their own story and, um, what they're, what they're going through and, Yeah, I can imagine anyone would be really blessed to work with you. So I'm really grateful to have you in our collective, um, and to have this conversation. Yeah. Anything final that you'd like to say before we end the conversation?
Dr. Kye Peven: Um, just that I'm also, you know, really happy that you started this, this community and yeah, thank you so much for having me on.
Ellen: Yeah. And, um, a final note, if you want to get in touch with Dr. Kai and the work that he does, he's listed on the German New Medicine Collective website, which will be linked below, as well as, um, if you join our Mighty Network space, uh, that's also a space that you can interact with Dr. Kai and learn a little bit of more, a little bit more about his approach. So, um, thank you all so much. And thank you, Dr. Kai. It was such a pleasure to chat with you today.
Dr. Kye Peven: Thanks so much for having me.